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#24357 - 06/24/11 05:15 PM 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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Hello everyone, new poster long time reader here. I recently acquired a 2.3T swapped car. I honestly think it's got a good amount of potential but at the current moment no so much.

On a cold start, it's great. Very smooth and boosts well.. But once warmed up the idle bounces around a bit and driveabilty is pretty poor, not smooth at all. The car littlery bucks around.

First thing I did was gap the plugs at .30, that helped a little but not much. The car has a FP gauge inside and it's reading around 41psi while the car is idling (with vac line on). From what I've read that's about right.

I'm also trying to figure out what parts are on the car. So far I've figured out it's a '88 Turbo coupe motor, volvo FMIC, 255lph pump, kirban adjustable FP regulator, adjustable cam gear, 35 pound injectors (brown tops), 3G alt, big VAM and a LB3 computer.

Here are some pics, to help:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/payupsuka/Junior/IMG_0502.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/payupsuka/Junior/IMG_0504.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/payupsuka/Junior/IMG_0505.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/payupsuka/Junior/IMG_0506.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/payupsuka/Junior/IMG_0498.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/payupsuka/Junior/IMG_0508.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/payupsuka/Junior/IMG_0510.jpg

Also a video showing how poorly it drives:
http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/payupsuka/Junior/?action=view¤t=IMG_0512.mp4

I've pretty much narrowed it down though.Came home from work last night and hopped in the car and took it around the block. Ran perfect! UNTIL the engine bay (and motor, temp was at 125 and coming up) got some heat into it then it started running like crap with bucking and all. So if I had to take a educated guess, I'd say it's something dealing with spark (wires/cap/rotor, coil, TFI module). Something heat-sensitive.

I also did a little digging earlier and found the ECT sensor (in the upper intake near the FP regulator) was disconnected. So I hooked it back up and I undid the battery for now to let the computer reset. I'll go outside in a bit and see if that did anything.

Please post up if you have some incite on this problem!

-Mike


-'91 Mustang w/ '88 TC motor... The daily
-'88 Mustang w/ T-70'd 5.0... The race car
#24358 - 06/24/11 05:38 PM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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Pete D Online content
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ECT is in the lower intake , in between the middle two fuel injectors. A bad ECT does not always set a code. There are no sensors in the stock 87-88 upper intake. There are a couple on the throttle body.

Have you pulled the codes from the EEC. What are the code numbers, for each section of the test?


Pete Dunham


#24359 - 06/24/11 06:06 PM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pete D:
ECT is in the lower intake , in between the middle two fuel injectors. A bad ECT does not always set a code. There are no sensors in the stock 87-88 upper intake. There are a couple on the throttle body.

Have you pulled the codes from the EEC. What are the code numbers, for each section of the test?
Sorry, dunno why I said upper. But yea the ECT sensor in the lower, between the two injectors.

I pulled some codes with it KOEO:

81
83
85
88

I actually just went outside and hooked up the battery and low and behold it runs 100x's better. Doesn't buck or anything now. I rechecked for codes but still get those same 4. One of the codes is for a shift soloniod I think, the computer is from a auto TC but the car is a 5 speed.

I did feel a SLIGHT miss nearing the redline (6k)and the wideband is reading 10.0:1 while WOT, but other then that it drove perfect and made 15psi.


-'91 Mustang w/ '88 TC motor... The daily
-'88 Mustang w/ T-70'd 5.0... The race car
#24360 - 06/24/11 08:43 PM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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81 is a problem with the stock boost control solenoid. Is your uunplugged electrically?

83 relates to the cooling fans. Circuit is open

85 relates to the auto trans.


Pete Dunham


#24361 - 06/24/11 10:57 PM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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Pete, for 81 it is. I have a MBC. 83 I have a aftermarket electric fan, and for 85 like I said I have the LB3 computer from a auto TC.

Ok, just fired it up again and it's back to bucking and missing.

What should I set fuel pressure at? How do I do it on the 2.3T? Disconnect the vac line while it's running?


-'91 Mustang w/ '88 TC motor... The daily
-'88 Mustang w/ T-70'd 5.0... The race car
#24362 - 06/25/11 12:17 AM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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Check FP and make sure the cat is not plugged. More than likely you have no cat!! Check the timing and make sure it advances. And also check the compression.

FP should be 40 with the vacuum unhooked. Also check spark energy and the wires. Cap and rotor. Alo check the PCV VALVE. Also check the TPS and VAM for a good voltage sweep. Also check for vacuum leaks and boost leaks. Good luck


Paulie

HAVE YOU DRIVEN A FORD LATELY??

I spend money i don't have. Building cars i don't need. To impress people i don't know!!
#24363 - 06/25/11 06:37 AM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paulie:
Check FP and make sure the cat is not plugged. More than likely you have no cat!! Check the timing and make sure it advances. And also check the compression.

FP should be 40 with the vacuum unhooked. Also check spark energy and the wires. Cap and rotor. Alo check the PCV VALVE. Also check the TPS and VAM for a good voltage sweep. Also check for vacuum leaks and boost leaks. Good luck
I checked the FP, makes right at 40psi with vac on at idle. It does have a cat, it's not plugged though. How would I check spark energy and the wires? Cap had some corrosion in it, so I cleaned it up and it seemed to help. Rotor looked good. I haven't checked the PCV valve, will do that. TPS and VAM are good. Car makes 25inches of vac at idle, and it's very quiet under the hood at idle.


-'91 Mustang w/ '88 TC motor... The daily
-'88 Mustang w/ T-70'd 5.0... The race car
#24364 - 06/26/11 12:51 AM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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40 psi with vac line ON FPR is WAY out of spec on the high side. FP should be 39-40 psi with vac line OFF. With vac line off, this will not change with RPM, load, etc. Depending on idle vac, with vac line ON FPR, press should be around 30 psi.


Jeff Korn

88 Turbo Coupe: Intake and exhaust mods, T3 turbo at 24 psi, forced air IC, water injection, BPV, Ranger cam, subframes, etc., etc.
86 Tbird 5.0 (original owner): intake, exhaust, valvetrain mods, 100 HP N2O, ignition, gears, suspension, etc., etc.
05 Taurus SEL Duratec daily driver
04 Taurus Duratec (wifes car)
02 Pontiac Grand Prix GT
95 Taurus GL Vulcan winter beater
67 Honda 450 Super Sport - completely customized
#24365 - 06/26/11 01:09 AM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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Bear, DE
Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff K:
40 psi with vac line ON FPR is WAY out of spec on the high side. FP should be 39-40 psi with vac line OFF. With vac line off, this will not change with RPM, load, etc. Depending on idle vac, with vac line ON FPR, press should be around 30 psi.
Wow, I thought it was 40psi with the line on. I'll change that ASAP. On the 2.3T cars, you adjust it while idling correct? Would you plug the line or just leave open as a vac leak?


-'91 Mustang w/ '88 TC motor... The daily
-'88 Mustang w/ T-70'd 5.0... The race car
#24366 - 06/26/11 02:03 AM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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Check your ignition. I recently had the exact same issue with my Tbird.

The problem was plugs and wires.
I had aftermarket plugs and wires, and these engines are already very sensitive to spark.
Once the wires heated up, I couldn't boost more than 12psi without it bucking and missing.


I bought BRAND NEW Motorcraft plugs (gapped to .029) and Motorcraft wires (bought 5.0L wires because they have the angled boots), and now it runs perfect.

If your wires are too close to the turbo or header, then you will have problems (heat = resistance).

I ended up spending wayyy too much money chasing down a simple problem (new ECU, ECT, ACT, checking for leaks, dissy, cap, rotor, tfi).


88 TC, FMIC, GT35-1 .70 A/R, 42lb Injectors, MS2 p&p, Custom upper manifold, junk heap Stinger header, 3 inch exhaust, Accufab FPR, Bo-Port 1.9 cam, Oversized valves, ported head, Stage 3 clutch, 22psi.
#24367 - 06/26/11 02:10 AM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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I watched your video....that is some serious bucking. Nothing as bad as what I dealt with (and my wires were BURNT).

The only other thing I can think of that will give you those exact symptoms is a really bad intake leak. Possibly a leak in your IC or vacuum lines. If a vacuum line splits, it will be hard to see the hole, and it can intermittently seal itself...

I only mention an intake leak, because I don't know how many times I've blown my charge pipes off and it gave me the exact same problem.
Your problem might be as small as a hole in the IC or vacuum lines.


time to start spraying ether everywhere


88 TC, FMIC, GT35-1 .70 A/R, 42lb Injectors, MS2 p&p, Custom upper manifold, junk heap Stinger header, 3 inch exhaust, Accufab FPR, Bo-Port 1.9 cam, Oversized valves, ported head, Stage 3 clutch, 22psi.
#24368 - 06/26/11 03:08 AM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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I can't give you any more info or suggestions than these guys have so far, but I just wanted to give you some props on your video. It's definitely helpful and I liked the fact that you explained things along the way and that it wasn't 20 seconds long.


Brian Leavitt
'86 TC 5-Speed -- MS2x w/COP | 83 lb. injectors | T3/T4 50 Trim Stage 3 .63AR | Full 3" Exhaust - No Cat | Motorsport FMIC | Ranger Roller | Ported E6 | Walbro 255HP | Kirban | 17psi | 120-amp 3G | 8.8" 3.55 rear | '03 Cobra Wheels
'87 TC 5-Speed
'97 T-Bird LX Sport 4.6
'66 Mustang Coupe
#24369 - 06/26/11 03:48 AM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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Bear, DE
Thanks B! Since I'm asking for help I try to be as descriptive as I can. If a video helps, I'll take one.

Thanks for the suggestions guys! I'm off work tomorrow so I'll go though them all. One thing I noticed is the wideband goes LEAN when the car acts up. Though the fuel pressure is good, could it be the injectors? I honestly don't know.

-Mike


-'91 Mustang w/ '88 TC motor... The daily
-'88 Mustang w/ T-70'd 5.0... The race car
#24370 - 06/26/11 03:48 AM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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Fuel pressure should be 40 with no vacuum line connected. But i do not think its your issue. Sounds like SPARK. Is your ignition system STOCK?? Coil wires cap rotor ETC. I have actually run higher pressures than 40 Psi on fuel with good results on my modified car. But the proper setting is 40 with hose disconnected. No need to plug vacuum line . But it wont hurt. The idle will come up because of a vacuum leak Good luck. Did you check the back pressure in the exhaust. Cat clogged etc. Normally a clogged cat will hinder higher speed performance but anything is possible. Check all the basics again including compression and leaks Good luck


Paulie

HAVE YOU DRIVEN A FORD LATELY??

I spend money i don't have. Building cars i don't need. To impress people i don't know!!
#24371 - 06/26/11 10:15 PM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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Bear, DE
Quote:
Originally posted by Paulie:
Fuel pressure should be 40 with no vacuum line connected. But i do not think its your issue. Sounds like SPARK. Is your ignition system STOCK?? Coil wires cap rotor ETC. I have actually run higher pressures than 40 Psi on fuel with good results on my modified car. But the proper setting is 40 with hose disconnected. No need to plug vacuum line . But it wont hurt. The idle will come up because of a vacuum leak Good luck. Did you check the back pressure in the exhaust. Cat clogged etc. Normally a clogged cat will hinder higher speed performance but anything is possible. Check all the basics again including compression and leaks Good luck
I checked most of that. All good. I adjusted the FP and it's sitting at 29psi with the vac on.

Here's a new set of video's I took:
Part 1:
http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/payupsuka/Junior/?action=view¤t=IMG_0524.mp4

Part 2 (just so I know I'm not crazy):
http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/payupsuka/Junior/?action=view¤t=IMG_0525.mp4

I think it's running good now :)
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/payupsuka/Junior/IMG_0526.jpg


-'91 Mustang w/ '88 TC motor... The daily
-'88 Mustang w/ T-70'd 5.0... The race car
#24372 - 06/26/11 11:46 PM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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I let it cool down then took it for a ride see how it was. It's back to running like crap. Like I said in the video's. I'm still going to get motorcraft parts on the car this week.


-'91 Mustang w/ '88 TC motor... The daily
-'88 Mustang w/ T-70'd 5.0... The race car
#24373 - 06/29/11 05:41 AM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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Ok, so it's got new motorcraft plug's, wires, cap and rotor... and it still runs like crap warm. It's bucking/stumbling all over the rev range.

I've checked:
- TPS (fine, within spec)
- Compression (fine, all pulled within 10% of 140psi)
- VAM (fine, within spec)
- Fuel pressure ( 30psi with vac line ON at idle, 40psi with line OFF)
- Firing order/wires is correct.
- NO vac/boost leaks (all clamps are tight and couplers good)

I'm either thinking it's the TFI module OR the PIP in the dizzy. Another option is the timing is not at 10 degree's with the spout out and/or the ECT sensor is bad.

I'm not getting any codes besides those 4 either.

I really wish I had a fresh set of eyes take a look at this thing. I honestly need it on the road asap.

-Mike


-'91 Mustang w/ '88 TC motor... The daily
-'88 Mustang w/ T-70'd 5.0... The race car
#24374 - 06/29/11 06:46 AM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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I had an issue with mine like a year ago that was vaguely similar to your issue, though not nearly as bad. I just ended up swapping the whole dizzy, including the TFI and PIP, and it cleared right up. Not saying this will be the case with your problem, but your TFI module is at least suspect.


Brian Leavitt
'86 TC 5-Speed -- MS2x w/COP | 83 lb. injectors | T3/T4 50 Trim Stage 3 .63AR | Full 3" Exhaust - No Cat | Motorsport FMIC | Ranger Roller | Ported E6 | Walbro 255HP | Kirban | 17psi | 120-amp 3G | 8.8" 3.55 rear | '03 Cobra Wheels
'87 TC 5-Speed
'97 T-Bird LX Sport 4.6
'66 Mustang Coupe
#24375 - 06/29/11 06:50 AM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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I don't know anything about 5.0's... Does yours have a TFI module you could swap for testing purposes?


Brian Leavitt
'86 TC 5-Speed -- MS2x w/COP | 83 lb. injectors | T3/T4 50 Trim Stage 3 .63AR | Full 3" Exhaust - No Cat | Motorsport FMIC | Ranger Roller | Ported E6 | Walbro 255HP | Kirban | 17psi | 120-amp 3G | 8.8" 3.55 rear | '03 Cobra Wheels
'87 TC 5-Speed
'97 T-Bird LX Sport 4.6
'66 Mustang Coupe
#24376 - 06/29/11 12:33 PM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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Well replace the PIP and TFI and go from their. The 5.0 has the same part numbers as the 4 cylinder DIZZY for those two parts. Change them out and go from their. I always change them together . And i never assume they are good if tested off the car. Good Luck.


Paulie

HAVE YOU DRIVEN A FORD LATELY??

I spend money i don't have. Building cars i don't need. To impress people i don't know!!
#24377 - 06/29/11 12:45 PM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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I noticed in your video when the car was running BAD that the Tach was pulsing when bucking. I would think that may be the TFI breaking down. I would replace it along with the PIP. Your problem seems to be Ignition. One other possible cause could be a ripped hose in the tank and its bypassing pressure. Have you had the tank down and inspected the sock and fuel line. Just a THOUGHT!!!


Paulie

HAVE YOU DRIVEN A FORD LATELY??

I spend money i don't have. Building cars i don't need. To impress people i don't know!!
#24378 - 06/29/11 06:12 PM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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Paul and B, I appreciate the help. I'm just gonna try swapping in a known good dizzy with a good TFI and PIP and see what happenes.

I hope that's it.


-'91 Mustang w/ '88 TC motor... The daily
-'88 Mustang w/ T-70'd 5.0... The race car
#24379 - 06/30/11 04:07 AM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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If it has an EGR valve...try disconnecting it... drive...and see what happens.


Garry McVey "BIRDS OF A FEATHER" TBird TC owners are usually wingin' it
TC's 83 project, 86 donor for 83, 86 FUN street car daily driver with speed equipment from Red 88 donor, 87 blue to be stock street car, 87 red donor for blue and others, 87 red donor, 88 street and strip(now a donor) 14.01 chasin 13.0's, 87 XR4ti project,
#24380 - 07/01/11 07:16 AM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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Bear, DE
So swapped the dizzy with a known good dizzy and no good. I also made a EGR delete out of some mild steel I had laying around since I found out the EGR was leaking exhaust (unmetered air) into the intake.

Car still doesn't want to idle correctly and is missing/bucking/stumbling still.


-'91 Mustang w/ '88 TC motor... The daily
-'88 Mustang w/ T-70'd 5.0... The race car
#24381 - 07/01/11 09:28 AM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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Take a pair of vice grips and squeeze the BPV hose closed. See if it runs better that way. You may have a bad BPV.

I would like to see some pics by the BPV, VAM hose, and recirculation tubing.


1986 Turbo Coupe. Boport StageIII head, Boport 2.1, Performance Techniques 50 trim hybird, StageII.63, stinger 3" exhaust, Phenolic spacer, Boglog header,NPR FMIC intercooler setup, kirban fpr, bigrmotorsports fuel rail, diablo water meth kit, CAI, remote mount TFI, CHE rear adj control arms, MAC girdle, 8.8 rear disc, aluminum drive shaft, H&R lowerings springs Tbird Turbo Specific, y MAS!!
#24382 - 07/02/11 02:07 AM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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Did a search (bucking and stalling) and came up with these... Ignition switch, orange ground wire at turbo.


Garry McVey "BIRDS OF A FEATHER" TBird TC owners are usually wingin' it
TC's 83 project, 86 donor for 83, 86 FUN street car daily driver with speed equipment from Red 88 donor, 87 blue to be stock street car, 87 red donor for blue and others, 87 red donor, 88 street and strip(now a donor) 14.01 chasin 13.0's, 87 XR4ti project,
#24383 - 07/02/11 04:22 AM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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Bear, DE
Alright garry, I'll look for the ground (almost sure I saw it too). I'll grab a ignition switch from work tomorrow (also going to get a ECT sensor, just to see if that's a problem too).

I also made another video...
http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/payupsuka/Junior/?action=view¤t=8ff6ef4a.mp4

I'm almost ready to call someone and have them come fix it, I'm to the point where I NEED a car.

-Mike


-'91 Mustang w/ '88 TC motor... The daily
-'88 Mustang w/ T-70'd 5.0... The race car
#24384 - 07/02/11 04:34 AM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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Quote:
Originally posted by RDOG:
Take a pair of vice grips and squeeze the BPV hose closed. See if it runs better that way. You may have a bad BPV.

I would like to see some pics by the BPV, VAM hose, and recirculation tubing.
Will try that tomorrow (squeezing it closed). In the mean time here's some pics, you can see the piping setup in them.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/payupsuka/Junior/IMG_0516.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/payupsuka/Junior/IMG_0517.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/payupsuka/Junior/IMG_0518.jpg


-'91 Mustang w/ '88 TC motor... The daily
-'88 Mustang w/ T-70'd 5.0... The race car
#24385 - 07/02/11 06:52 AM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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Dude... if that's a Bosch bypass valve, which is what it looks like, it's in backwards. It looks exactly like the one in my wife's bug. Whether or not that makes a difference with that particular valve I don't know, but I would think that it would.


Brian Leavitt
'86 TC 5-Speed -- MS2x w/COP | 83 lb. injectors | T3/T4 50 Trim Stage 3 .63AR | Full 3" Exhaust - No Cat | Motorsport FMIC | Ranger Roller | Ported E6 | Walbro 255HP | Kirban | 17psi | 120-amp 3G | 8.8" 3.55 rear | '03 Cobra Wheels
'87 TC 5-Speed
'97 T-Bird LX Sport 4.6
'66 Mustang Coupe
#24386 - 07/02/11 07:01 AM Re: 2.3T running terrible when warm...  
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B  Online Mad



Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,945
Nokesville, VA, USA
Here's the valve in my wife's car. The large blue hose is the intake hose. Smaller black hose comes from the IC piping.

http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy270/bleavitt23/Misc/IMG_2064.jpg
http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy270/bleavitt23/Misc/IMG_2065.jpg


Brian Leavitt
'86 TC 5-Speed -- MS2x w/COP | 83 lb. injectors | T3/T4 50 Trim Stage 3 .63AR | Full 3" Exhaust - No Cat | Motorsport FMIC | Ranger Roller | Ported E6 | Walbro 255HP | Kirban | 17psi | 120-amp 3G | 8.8" 3.55 rear | '03 Cobra Wheels
'87 TC 5-Speed
'97 T-Bird LX Sport 4.6
'66 Mustang Coupe
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